God Doesn’t Believe in Atheists

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. ~Romans 1:18-32

According to verses 19 and 20, who knows God exists? That’s right, everybody. So, on the basis of the Word of God, there are no atheists; there are only people who suppress the truth that they know about God in their unrighteousness. In other words, they don’t want God to exist so they can live however they wish.

The following from Voddie Baucham will help frame our discussion.

“Three phrases in this paragraph support Paul’s conclusion that people are “without excuse” in terms of general revelation. First, the phrase, “is plain to them,” reminds us that the knowledge of God we receive from general revelation does not require unusual effort. The second phrase, “God has shown it to them,” reminds us that general revelation is not hidden or secret. The third phrase, “have been clearly perceived,” reminds us that general revelation (Rom. 1:18-31) cannot be missed by accident. Doing so requires suppression.

Put these three together and we see that God has provided a means of knowing about him that requires no special effort, is not hidden, and cannot be missed unless, of course, we want to miss it. And that is why those who “miss it” are said to be “without excuse.” Thus, the spiral begins when men reject God’s general revelation. Consequently, they continue downward and refuse to honor the God they know.” [1]

Many professing atheists will say there is not enough evidence to conclude the existence of God, or that God has not proven Himself to them. But the Bible says there is more than enough evidence to prove God’s existence (again, see vs. 19-20). He has demonstrated Himself through creation and the conscience. The problem is not a lack of evidence, but an unwillingness to believe. Notice the underlined portions and see that professing atheists willfully reject the truth they know about God and will therefore experience God’s judgment unless they repent. Moreover, they hate God (v. 30). They may deny it, but it’s true. Many professing atheists are “former” [2] Christians and began to profess atheism either after a tragedy they experienced, or in rebellion against their parents/the Church. This is evidence of their hatred toward God.

Many professing atheists say, “If God were to show me a sign, I would believe.” However, that is also false. Many people saw the signs, wonders, and miracles Jesus performed while He walked the earth, yet not everyone believed on Him. [3] This is further support for my claim that it’s not a problem of evidence for the supposed atheist. It’s merely a ploy to mask their unwillingness to believe. [4] If God showed them a sign, they would find a way to explain it away. Because they don’t want to acknowledge and submit to the God they know exists.

Incidentally, verses 19-20 also answer another common question. That is, what of the person deep in the jungle who has never heard of the Name of Jesus? Will God send them to hell, holding them accountable for what they don’t know? This is usually brought up by unbelievers in the context of questioning God’s justice. As if God would be unjust if He were to send them to hell. But according to these verses, we see God’s revelation is universal in creation; God has revealed Himself to everybody everywhere. While this revelation is not enough to save anyone, it is enough to damn them, “so that they are without excuse.” So God would be just in condemning them if they don’t acknowledge God’s revelation in creation. If, however, they go the opposite direction of the downward spiral seen in verses 21-32 and acknowledge God, then God will providentially get the Gospel to them. Moreover, as the Apostle Paul goes on to elaborate in this letter to the Romans, everybody is under sin. Therefore, God would be just in condemning them to hell, whether they heard the Gospel or not. But let’s delve deeper, and see if that’s what God will do.

In His Olivet Discourse, Jesus said, “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come,” [5] in answering His disciples’ questions about the end of the age. In other words, Jesus will not come back until everyone has heard the Gospel. Whether from a person, or even an angel, [6] everyone will have the Gospel preached to them; no one will be able to say they didn’t know, or had never heard. How do I know Jesus’ words apply to everyone – that everyone will hear the Gospel? Revelation 5:9 records a song sung by those who are “redeemed…out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.” People from every clan, language, people group and ethnicity will be in heaven, so God obviously gets the Gospel to them, and some of them believe. Rather than smear God for not saving everybody, let’s praise Him for saving anybody!

So, while progressing atheists claim to not believe in the existence of God, God says in His Word that atheists don’t exist. “Let God be true, but every man a liar.” [7] Hence, Christian, next time you are in a discussion with someone and they claim to be an atheist, don’t believe them.

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Endnotes

[1] Voddie Baucham, Expository Apologetics, p. 51, italics in original

[2] 1 John 2:19 clearly states that there is no such thing as a “former” Christian. If they professed faith and no longer hold to that profession, then they never truly believed.

[3] His own disciples didn’t even believe He rose from the dead when He was standing right in front of them!

[4] They also have an inability to believe, since Ephesians 2:8 says faith is granted as a gift from God.

[5] Matthew 24:13-14

[6] See Revelation 14:6-7

[7] Romans 3:4

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88 thoughts on “God Doesn’t Believe in Atheists

  1. Hello Jimmy,

    Here’s a post about your baseless claim that your god doesn’t believe in atheists.

    First, we have no evidence of your god at all. The quote from Romans 1 is something that most if not all religions make, that “creation” and “conscience” is evidence for their god and “everyone” should believe in that god. Since no religion can show that their claim that their god/s is creator of the universe, there is no reason to believe any of you. It’s more than a bit ridiculous that religions claim this, especially when these religions were all terribly ignorant of reality, based on Bronze/Iron Age nonsense.

    I’m an atheist, and unfortunately for you, and your god, I’m not imaginary. I know that your god, as described in the bible, doesn’t exist. All of the essential events of the bible never happened and completely different things did, things we have evidence for. Could there be some kind of god? Maybe, and a lot of believers have gone to claiming a very vague entity exists, because they realize that there is no way to defend this biblical god since there is nothing to support the claims about it. But so far, there is no evidence of any kind of powerful magical being. We have the reality and its physical laws. No magic has ever been shown to be the cause of anything at all.

    What you appear to need is external validation of your beliefs, and you need to pretend that everyone “really” agrees with you. We don’t. Everyone doesn’t believe in your version of your god, or in any god at all, as in my case. Even other Christians don’t agree that your version of your god exists. Having been a Christian (Presbyterian) myself, I know that Christians vary widely on what they think this god wants, does, etc. I got a nice front row seat to watch anti-Catholic nonsense when a relative of mine wanted to marry a Catholic back in the 70s and I can find dozens of websites insisting that some Christian sect or other is considered not Christian by another Christian sect.

    I don’t hate your version of your god. That would be silly since it is imaginary. I can hate what this god is purported to have done, just like Darth Vader. Any being that does genocide is to be considered vermin, be it human or some god or some villain on a movie. When Christians try to excuse their god for its supposed actions and would decry the same actions by a human being, all they have is a might equals right argument. I’ve never thought that was a good argument for anything.

    Now, you try to claim that an atheist wouldn’t believe a sign from this god. However, that doesn’t work because if this god is as Christians claim, it would know exactly what it would take for me to believe and show me that. When I was losing my faith as a Christian, I prayed for help. Funny how I never got any. You attempt to claim that no one would believe because they don’t want to doesn’t work since with God all things are possible, right? How could a mere atheist resist this?

    At this point, a usual Christian response would be that this god said not to test it to try to excuse its inaction. However, the bible shows that you are wrong since this god repeatedly allows itself to be tested and has no problem with it, from Gideon to Thomas. You see, I’ve read the bible, once through as a believer, and once through as an atheist. I know what it actually says, not what a Christian might try to tell me.

    Christians have been claiming that “real soon now” this savior will return. It’s been thousands of years and still nothing at all. How many generations have gone to their deathbeds disappointed and completely wrong? That will keep happening. There will always be excuse on why it hasn’t happened yet, the goalposts will always be moved. You claim that everyone has to hear the gospel before JC returns. In that there are vanishingly few places haven’t heard the bible stories, there is no reason to think that this hasn’t been already accomplished already. And still no Jesus Christ, killing all non-believers, ruling an eon over the Christians, and then, weirdly enough, this god intentionally chooses to allow Satan to roam free again to corrupt those faithful believers (Revelation 19-21). Quite a god this is. Indeed, if this god would show me that it existed, I would believe but still wouldn’t worship such a pathetic god as this for just that reason.

    Your bible does say that every man is a liar. What does that make Christians since this god doesn’t give any exceptions to this supposed rule? Why indeed should I believe you by your own words? You see, Jimmy, your bible doesn’t make a whole lot of sense and it contradicts itself repeatedly. You also might want to consult Romans 3 where it says that when a Christian thinks that lying for this god is okay, it isn’t.

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    • You know God doesn’t exist? Really? What do you base that on? That your prayer didn’t get answered? What about the millions of others whose prayers have been answered? Does that then prove God’s existence? Your argument from experience is invalid.

      Moreover, since your worldview excludes God, it is reduced to absurdity since you have no objective standard of authority outside yourself. You demonstrate that it is absurd a few sentences after you say that you “know” God doesn’t exist, but then leave the door open for the possibility of “some kind of god.”
      Not only do you not have any standard of authority outside yourself, you have no standard of right and wrong outside yourself. What are you appealing to when you accuse God of wrong doing? Where did you get this sense of right, wrong, justice, human rights, etc.? Your God-given conscience. You then wrongfully and illogically use your God-given conscience to argue against God.

      In response to your claim that God should show you whatever it would take to get you to believe, you wrongfully assume God’s motives. This assumes that God is actually trying to get everyone to believe in Him. Obviously, He’s not. Is he powerful enough to? Of course.

      Since you claim to have read the Bible, you would know that it says this in regards to the Lord’s return.
      “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” (2 Peter 3:3‭-‬10)
      You see the Bible actually predicted your response. Not only is your comment wrong Scripturally, it also fails logically. You assume the future will be like the past when there is no reason to. It’s like saying I’ll never die since I haven’t died in the past.

      You’re right, there are no exceptions to ‘every man is a liar.’ But it also adds that God is true, even though every man be a liar. You don’t have to believe me. Thankfully, I believe in a God Who saves liars, thieves, blasphemers, adulterers, the arrogant self-righteous, etc.

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      • I myself have had prayers answered, along with others I know, and millions of Christians throughout history. You won’t accept any evidence I present, but suffice it to say that my experience is different than yours.

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      • Other theists of other religions make the same baseless claims. Are their prayers answered by their gods too? They must be as valid as your god if we are to take your claim as true.

        You are a liar when you try to excuse yourself from presenting any evidence by falsely claiming I will not accept any. Present it and we will examine it together. If you refuse, we know exactly how much evidence you have: none.

        Many Christians claim that their prayers have been answered. We have them standing in a field after a tornado and saying how wonderful and blessed they are, but not acknowledging that people were hurt and killed around them, even members of their own religion. It’s called confirmation bias. They willfully ignore that their god failed many, and the most disgusting will indulge in blaming the victims.

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      • God has met my needs on many occasions, and does so daily. He has never failed me. Nor has He failed anyone because it’s impossible for Him to do so.

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      • That’s funny since this god failed the parents of that college girl who was murdered. I’m sure that they prayed hard that she would come back alive. This god fails good Christians in various countries in Africa when they starve and when Muslims attack them and chop off their limbs with machetes. Do you think they weren’t praying? This god failed the people back in Hurricane Katrina.

        now, what will your excuse be? Why weren’t these people’s needs met?

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      • Neither I nor you know what those Christians were praying for. Maybe they prayed for the strength to endure the persecution and be faithful witnesses for Christ. That’s a common prayer for Christians, and one God always grants.

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      • Oh my. That’s quite an attempt to excuse your god, Jimmy. You have to try to claim that humans aren’t praying to not be harmed, which is just pathetic. I, and I suspect, you, know better. And I know that people constantly pray for healing, we see pastors constantly promising that people can be healed by prayer and we see the bible constantly claiming that prayers will be answered. That you thinks this is a valid excuse shows just how desperate adults are to believe that they have the only right answer to the universe and that they have an imaginary best friend that agrees with them.

        Of course, all of the prayers from Christians that I’ll be mindwiped and believe like they do always fail. You still have no answer for that, do you?

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      • Yes people pray for healing all the time. And is it possible those Christians prayed not to suffer? Sure. But if those prayers are answered negatively (you seem to forget that “No” is an answer as well) doesn’t mean that God failed them. You’ll never get me to admit to that. You seem to have no answer for the fact that some prayers are answered (positively).

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      • Ah, no isn’t an possible answer from your god per your bible, Jimmy. You might want to read it to see. Again, this god of yours says that any prayer will be answered positively, quickly and at the worst, you have to have at least two people praying. Now, please to tell us why your supposedly omnipotent and all-good god would say no to someone who is starving to death? I am curious on what you will say.

        It doesn’t matter if you admit a fact or not, Jimmy. Facts don’t care about what humans say. They don’t care if you believe in fairies or your god or anything else. Reality just keeps going on without your approval.

        There is no evidence prayers are answered in any case for good or bad. What you need to do to support the claim tht this god answers prayers is be able to show that any good effects aren’t simply coincidence. Where are the fingerprints of your god? Why not just say it was another god?

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      • I also have had prayers that weren’t answered. The logical conclusion to that, however, is not that God doesn’t exist. He obviously had a different plan. The object of prayer is not to get God to bend to my will, but for me to bow to His.

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      • of course you did, and you try to excuse your god, claiming it has a different “plan”. That doesn’t make sense. Either your god has a plan and prayers don’t have any impact, or that prayers have impact and your god doesn’t have a plan. Which is it?

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      • It makes perfect sense to a Believer. I don’t expect it to make sense to you. Prayer always has an impact, whether my circumstances change or not.

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      • Of course it does because you made it up to excuse your god. And again, there is no evidence to support your claim that “prayer always has an impact”. You have to believe so to retain your faith, but no one else would be able to tell a world where the believer insists that there is an impact and world where there is no impact at all.

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      • Then present evidence to support your claim. I can show that prayer doesn’t work at all, just by pointing at the prayers not answered by your god, despite the bible’s promises. Your attempt to claim that maybe people aren’t praying for actual help is just ridiculous.

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      • What evidence do you have? I’d need to see it to review it and decide if they would suffice to change my mind. Do you understand that a claim is not evidence? Stories without anything to back them up are just that, stories. Please proceed.

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      • In case you haven’t noticed from my approach, I am a presuppositionalist as opposed to an evidentialist. Basically, I don’t believe unbelievers are persuaded by evidence; I did not become a Christian based on evidence, but my presuppositions changed, and it changed the way I looked at the evidence. To present evidence to you, as you alluded to in your comment, would make you judge and jury over God, an untenable position for me. I could present to you prayers that were answered, some before I even verbally prayed them, and you would find some way to explain it away because of your preconceived idea that no prayers are ever answered. In short, I’m not going to present evidence to you. Get saved, and your presuppositions will change.

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      • Yes, Jimmy, I’ve noticed that you are a presuppositionalist, someone who assumes he is right and ignores anything that shows he is wrong. And hmmm, just how does your claim here “. I could present to you prayers that were answered, some before I even verbally prayed them” work with your claim of being a cessationist? All Christians invent their own version as we can see in your own words.

        It’s nice that you don’t believe that unbelievers are persuaded by evidence. You are wrong, but believe what you wish. That belief is just an excuse that you’ve given yourself so you don’t feel you have to actually provide evidence for your baseless claims. You know you don’t have any, but you think it sounds better if you try to blame people for not believing you.

        Funny how this god had no problem in presenting evidence for itself, if one believes the bible. Gideon got it, Thomas got it, with no excuses by this god or JC, if one believes the claims in your supposed holy book.

        You claim to have evidence but again, nothing from you. Please do show evidence prayers were answered and stop lying that I would not consider them. And if your prayers are answered, what is your god doing ignoring the prayers of children (and their parents) in cancer wards, vets who have lost limbs, etc? The starving around the world? Or are those prayers not allowed because they would actually show a cause and effect? I asked the same of a Christian Scientist when that little boy from England was dying: pray for a dying child and heal them. Funny how they couldn’t despite the claims of miracles from them constantly. That you would think you are more important than people who suffer such horrible things is rather disgusting, just like those Christians who claim that their god saved them from the tornado when people down the road are mourning a dead loved one. All it says about the Christian is just how “special” they think they are.

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      • Presuppositionalism means that *God* is right, not me, not you, or anyone else. But God.

        Answered prayer is not related to being a cessationist. Moreover, I am not a cessationist which believes that God does not do miracles today, but that there are no more Apostles and Prophets who perform miracles to prove their message.

        People who are open to evidence can be persuaded by evidence. But one who is set in their ways will not be convinced regardless of evidence, outside of a work of God. I should have said “generally speaking” unbelievers are not persuaded by evidence. I have heard testimonies of the evidence changing people’s minds and their being saved, but in my experience, more have gotten saved and have had their presuppositions – they way they view the evidence – changed.

        When did I ever say I was more important than anyone else? I believe I said the exact opposite.

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      • Presuppositionalism is the belief that only Christianity/bible (the version of the claimant has invented for themselves) is a divine revelation from a god and is the only basis for rational thought. It presupposes that the claims of the stories are true and then tries to force everything to fit that presupposition. In that Christians don’t agree in what the bible actually “means” and all have their own interpretation of it, shows that presuppositionalism is nothing more than opinion, and the assumption that the Christian’s god agrees with the hates and desires of the Christian.

        If prayers are answered by the supernatural as you claim, then yes, answered prayer is entirely related to being a cessationist. You of course want to use special pleading to allow for your god to answer prayers, which is such a lovely cherry picking since you know you can’t show that the bible promises of believers doing miracles happen. You ignore what is convenient for you out of your bible. That you think no one notices is amusing. Unfortunately for you, we have this bible, which you want to claim is true, saying that anyone who is baptized and accepts JC as savior will be able to do miracles like him. “The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: by using my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes in their hands, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.” These verses are considered a late addition to the Gospel of Mark. Do you want to presuppose that they are divinely from your god or that your bible has been altered and doesn’t speak the truth?

        Yes, people who are open to evidence can be persuaded by evidence. You again falsely try to excuse your inability to provide evidence by making false claims about me being unwilling to accept it. I am asking for evidence just like Thomas and Gideon. Your god supposedly had no problem in providing it. Why do its believers now insist that the evidence can’t be provided and try to lie about other people in order to excuse themselves?

        Jimmy, you constantly claim that other Christians aren’t really Christians and that they are wrong. You insist that I’m wrong, but refuse to show this to be the case. You insist you are right, and thus try to claim that you are more important than everyone else, that you have the only “right” answer. It does get tedious when a Christian like you tries to play the game of “but but I didn’t say that exactly” to avoid being held accountable. And yes, you mouth how much of a “sinner” you are, but you think you and only you and those who agree with you are the chosen. False humility is nothing new with Christians like you.

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      • A radical cessationist would claim that miracles do not happen now. The more mainstream cessationist position, however, is that the signs and wonders accompanying the ministry of the Apostles for the purpose of validating their message, no longer occur since there are no more Apostles and prophets. That would be my position, and it is not related to answered prayer, since that is not a sign or wonder.

        I believe the traditional ending to Mark to be genuine, and that those signs were fulfilled in the ministry of the Apostles; all of them but one occur in the Book of Acts.

        Thomas and Gideon were believers in God who doubted. God mercifully accommodated them and assuaged their doubts. Keep in mind that it was God Himself Who provided the evidence; they went directly to Him. For me to give you evidence for God in order for you to confirm His existence puts you in the position of judge over God, and I’m not going to do that.

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      • Yep, a cessationist different than your version does claim that miracles don’t happen now. Now, why does this type of Christian disagree with you, Jimmy? Calling someone a “radical” is no more than you calling someone a heretic, e.g. “they don’t agree with me so they must be wrong even though I have no more evidence than they do”.
        Cessationism does claim that miracles have stopped since the apostle all died, but your bible doesn’t agree. There is nothing in it that says that this is a stop point, and it goes out of its way to claim that *anyone* who is baptize and accepts JC as savior will be able to do miracles just like him. You’ve created an excuse and denied what is said in your bible: “Go into all the world and proclaim the good news to the whole creation. 16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: by using my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes in their hands, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
        It’s also great to see Christians try to distinguish between “miracles” and “signs” and “wonders” and the answers to prayers. Christians claim that answers to prayers are miracles, so again, it seems that you need to try to change meanings of words for your excuses about the failure of your religion’s promises to work. Here are Chrsitians who don’t agree with you: https://www.crosswalk.com/faith/spiritual-life/how-to-ask-god-for-a-miracle.html and https://www.christianitytoday.com/biblestudies/articles/spiritualformation/five-ways-god-answers-prayer.html plus so very many more if you google “is the answer to prayer a miracle”
        I was a believe in this god who doubted. I went directly to this god too, and got nothing so your little attempt at presupposition of what I did fails. Now what is your excuse for me not getting evidence? Hmmm?
        You see, Jimmy, Christians always try to tell me I didn’t complete some method of asking correctly or some other excuse to try to excuse their imaginary god and they fail because I did do what they invent and their god still fails.
        Your current excuse is that you can’t give me evidence because somehow this evidence that you claim to have would allow me to judge your god. What a pathetic god if it can’t take having a puny human being given evidence for it and allowing the human to judge, just like Thomas and Gideon were allowed to judge. And since it won’t give evidence of itself to a believer who was a young woman and who was losing her faith, it seems that this god of yours is either the petty thing that only allows certain people to accept it and has to hurt other people for no fault of their own, or is imaginary. Or perhaps it one doesn’t have to believe at all and one’s actions are all that matter, and Christians are entirely wrong?
        Which god do you want to go with?

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      • If you did what the “Christians invented” and didn’t achieve the desired result (assuming you wanted to believe), why would you determine that *God* failed? Another option is maybe those Christians weren’t giving you correct guidance. Why did you not get evidence? I don’t know. Maybe God chose to harden your heart like He did Pharoah.

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      • Hmmm, because I should be believing Christians, right, Jimmy? You’ve claimed that you know the right answers, so why should I doubt a TrueChristian? Or are you admitting that there is indeed no reason to believe what you claim or what they claim either? And why would that god of yours allow people to lie in its name? It certainly didn’t like that happening in the stories.

        Of course you claim you don’t know why your god failed. And thanks for admitting that your god did harden the pharoah’s heart in the story. It does a lovely job of showing that your god is no more than the usual bronze/iron age god that is petty, vicious and ignorant. There is no fairness or justice with your version of your religion, only automatons who think that they are the extraspecial chosen few, who have lovely sadistic fantasies of anyone who doesn’t agree with them being tortured for eternity.

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      • You should be believing God’s Word. Remember, my whole premise is “Let God be true and every man a liar.” I don’t know what those Christians said to you, but if they lied to you in God’s Name, then they will be judged for it.

        I admitted that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart a while ago, but that God is “petty, vicious and ignorant” is your interpretation, not mine. And I don’t know the kinds of Christians you used to hang out with, but none I know delight in people going to hell for eternity.

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      • In that you haven’t shown your version of your god to exist and can’t even convince other Christians, you are pretty much a failure; a pastor without a flock in need of external validations for his very own version of god made in his own image. You’ve lied just like other Christians, so again, you either are just a failure or are going to be judged for it. Must be confusing since you think you are the chosen.

        In that your god has to control people so it can show off, that it murders children, and that it gets upset when confronted by Job and throws a tantrum, yep, this god of yours, presented in the bible, is certainly petty vicious and ignorant. The poor thing insists it will destroy the city of Tyre, so no one can find it again. Funny how thousands of people live there, and we know where it is and where the archaeological ruins of its more ancient parts are. This god fails in front of the intelligence of puny humans. Heck, Jimmy, read C.S. Lewis’s “The Great Divorce” and see Christians delighting in hell. WE also have the following:

        “In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned. So that they may be urged the more to praise God. The saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens to the damned.” Thomas Aquinas – Summa Theologica

        “What a spectacle when the world and its many products, shall be consumed in one great flame! How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? What my derision? Which sight gives me joy??As I see illustrious monarchs groaning in the lowest darkness, Philosophers as fire consumes them! Poets trembling before the judgment-seat of Christ! I shall hear the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; view play-actors in the dissolving flame; behold wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows. What inquisitor or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favor of seeing and exulting in such things as these? Yet even now we in a measure have them by faith in the picturings of imagination.” Tertullian

        “The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell? I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss. ” Jonathan Edwards

        oh yes, and your very own bible “They shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment shall ascend up forever and ever. Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.” Revelation 19, and you might want to look at Revelation 18 and 14 too.

        So, Jimmy, those early church fathers are rather disappointing, eh? They have no problem with celebrating the fantasy that those who dared to disagree with them are tortured for eternity. They are no better than your god.

        I do hope you have a problem with people being tortured for not agreeing with you. You are then better than your god or than other Christians. Don’t accept that you have to approve of this out of fear. Don’t be the person who says “But I was just following orders”.

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      • Admittedly, the thought of anyone spending an eternity in hell isn’t a pleasant one, but I do – and will – delight in God’s justice being carried out.

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      • so you are exactly what I thought, and you were were completely wrong when you tried to claim that no christian would be happy about this eternal torture “And I don’t know the kinds of Christians you used to hang out with, but none I know delight in people going to hell for eternity.”. Now, Jimmy, why did you change your mind after I was able to show you making false statements? Did you simply not know what your fellow Christians said and wanted to pretend that you would be horrified at hell and now you feel you can be honest and show that you are a sadistic person who gets his jollies when people are hurt for not agreeing with him? In that you have claimed that you are chosen, it’s funny that you think it is just that people are harmed for no fault of their own. I suspect any SS officer would recognize that attitude.

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      • I didn’t change my mind. I don’t delight in people going to hell, I delight in God being glorified and His justice upheld. I understand if you don’t get the distinction. As an analogy, I don’t like people going to prison, but I like that the law is enforced and upheld.

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      • You can’t divorce one from the other, Jimmy. You think that damning people for no fault of their own is okay. That is your delight, and it’s no surprise that you want to claim otherwise. In all cases, you approve of what this god does and how it does it. Again, you are the soldier who wants to follow orders and then when it is pointed out that those orders are harmful, wants to say “but but I was just following orders. I didn’t give the command. It’s not my choice, it is God’s.” This is why I find many Christians to be cowards and sadists. And if no one went to prison, just how would the law be enforced and upheld? Are you for no prisons? I somehow don’t believe so.

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      • No one is damned “for no fault of their own.” All are judged according to their works, and rewarded or punished as their works deserve. Thankfully, I and other Christians know our works aren’t good enough to merit heaven, so we trust in Christ’s good works. I take no pleasure in people being tormented for eternity, but I will rejoice in God’s justice. Just like if a mass murderer were sentenced to a lifetime in prison without parole, it would be bad for him personally, but it would be good for society that our legal system worked (though personally, I’d be in favor of the death penalty in such a case).

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      • Yes, the bible does say that people are judged on their works, however it also says that this god only allows certain people to accept it. Many christiansn claim that it is only grace that gets one saved ‘sola gratia’. and insist that works have nothing to do with it. So, are we going with works or grace, Jimmy? You seem to want to use both, and that doesn’t work. You want to claim that people do good things because they are given grace to do so, and then you want to claim that people are judged on these works that they would do anyway if they have this ‘grace’.

        This is a common problem with Christianity and its sects because they believe in different things when it come how one is “saved”, and that is thanks to the bible being a contradictory mess.

        It’s hilarious to see you insist that we are judged on our works, but them claim that those works aren’t “good enough”. So just how is one judged on something that isn’t good enough and you know that already? Then you claim that what you really depend on is this blood sacrifice Jesus, his supposed good work, because these works by humans are never good enough.

        Your analogy about a mass murder fails because the murderer actually did something that he is responsible for. What your bible says people are damned for is the sins of two people, and that they do not accept Jesus as savior, something they are prevented from doing per Paul and per JC himself, and per you because works aren’t good enough and are a side effect of “grace”.

        Is it fair to punish someone for something they did not do and for something that they cannot do?

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      • We’ve brought up Romans 9 in this discussion. I’ll answer your last question from there.
        “18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God*? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to* make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if* God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”
        Bottom line, God, as our Creator, has the right to make us as He wills. We shouldn’t want what is fair, because if we all received that, we’d all go to hell. We should ask for mercy. Some receive mercy from God, some receive justice, but no one receives injustice.

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      • So, all you have is a might equals right argument, nothing more. Now, Jimmy, do you accept might equals right when it comes to humans? Because if not, you have a lovely situational morality, which shows that there is no objective morality from your god. Might equals right is what excuses slavery, dictatorships, etc. Are you good with those too? Or do you only want your god to be able to do what you find evil in humans?

        The only reason we supposedly “deserve” hell is because of what this god did, either intentionally or out of stupidity. If this god chooses some people over others by its whim, it is not justice at all, it’s just favoritism. I suspect you would consider a parent disgusting if it intentionally chose one child over another for no more reason than a whim. At least I can hope you would and be a decent human being. Now, why would asking for mercy from a god that made me unable to accept it and then damnable work? Where does that leave this “god’s plan” that many Christians claim exists. If I am damned, as the bible says, even before I’m born, what will asking for mercy do? And nice to see you say “some” receive mercy. Funny again how that shows that prayer doesn’t do a thing.

        It’s always easy for a sycophant to say no one received injustice when defending a tyrant. You just have to say “they deserve it”.

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      • I’ve already dealt with the “might equals right” issue. It boils down to my belief in the goodness of God, while man is not. I wouldn’t use the term “dictatorship” but if you must, then it is a benevolent one. You may question that, but a good king would put down an insurrection would he not? A good judge would punish criminals would he not? That’s what God does as the ultimate King and Judge. And as so much more than a parent, a “parent” to our first parents, He has the right to do with us as He wills. We’ve all heard parents say to their children, “I brought you in this world and I’ll take you out!” If that logic can be applied on a human level, how much more does it apply to a Creator-creature relationship?

        God doesn’t choose people based on a whim, but out of His love and mercy. And those that are saved aren’t saved as a result of their own prayers, but I know personally some who have been saved in answer to the prayers of others. You have failed to convince me that prayer does nothing.

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      • Okay, so we have you believing in might equals right and it only applies to your god. Good to know. As for your god being a “benevolent dictator”, genocide is never good, not even with your god, but you do believe that it is good because you believe that god is good, no matter what. And no, a good king would not put down an insurrection, if this was a good king at all. Again, Jimmy, you define “good” as whatever a dictator wants. And you define criminality as not obeying a dictator. This is why you have nothing more than a subjective morality, defined by what you want to claim your god is, not by what it does.

        If a being has the right to do whatever it wants with what it creates, then this should mean that parents can murder their children *if* this was a objective morality. However, it is not since I certainly would hope you would not advocate parents murdering their children on a whim. Yep, I’ve heard parents say that “I’ve brought you into the this world and I can take you out”. How pathetic that you think this is acceptable. I certainly hope you aren’t a parent because you are a bully.

        Again, nothing to show that your god does anything, much less by love or mercy when it picks people out by its whim and damns people because it wants to show off. And hilarious that now we have you make up that people have been “saved in answer to the prayers of others” but for some reason, people’s prayers of their own don’t work. Wow, any more “rules” you want to make up in order to try to claim that prayers work? I’ve had many people pray for me to have my mind changed by this god. Funny how their prayers don’t work either. Jimmy, prayers to your god work as well as prayers to a milk jug: not at all, and you keep having to make up nonsense on why your prayers don’t work, why other people’s prayers don’t work and making baseless claims again that somehow prayers do work in “saving” people, but they don’t work in healing people like your bible claims. Funny how amputees don’t get a damn thing from your god, when people could actually see a real change.

        I’m not here to convince you. It’s others who may see this and see just how subjective and mean Christianity can be in a Christian’s own words. When there is little difference between a certain type of Christian like you and a thug for a dictator, it is my purpose to show this in order to stand up against the false idea that religion is beneficial to humanity.

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      • “Genocide is never good.” Can you tell me why it’s never good according to your worldview (i.e. without borrowing from mine, meaning you can’t use terms like good and evil)? Why should you care what’s beneficial for humanity if we’re all just stardust floating through the empty vacuum of space until we die and cease to exist? This renders human life meaningless, so who cares if someone commits genocide?

        My point about “I brought you into this world and I can take you out,” was not that it was acceptable (notice I did not use that term). I don’t believe parents have the right to murder their children. For a parent to say that, usually in anger, they are taking on authority they don’t actually possess. The principle applies only to God. He made us, so He can do with us as He wills.

        You claim prayers don’t work based on your experience. My experience is different. I’m not here to convince you either. My refusal to supply evidence to you is not for lack of the presence of such evidence. But you appear to have your mind made up, as do I. Since it’s apparent that neither of us is going to change the other’s mind, what’s say we cut this off? Unless you want to respond to my questions in the first paragraph.

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      • So, Jimmy, back to the lies about atheists and them being no more than nihilists. You’ve failed before with that nonsense. And sorry, Jimmy, your unpleaseant version of Christianity doesn’t have the lock on good and evil, especially when your god approves of genocide. Your worldview is that of a sycophant and a tyrant, that anything that this god does is good, no matter what. This is a subjective morality, Jimmy, only depending on what you think your god wants and what it supposedly is. So, genocide is bad/evil because it harms people. It is killing for no reason other than the perceptions of an opposing group, often stereotypes invented to make that other group less than human. And I find it bad because people are not cookie cutter bad guys that some people don’t like because they don’t share the same skin color, religion, sexual preferences, etc with them. I care about humanity because I am human. You know, do unto others as they would have done unto them.
        And sorry, Jimmy, that idea was around long before your ignorant xenophobes who wrote the bible, and humans and hominids have been caring for each other long before your god was invented. So, hmmm, it seems you are stealing ideas from other people. Tsk, Jimmy, why would you steal from the Chinese and Ancient Egyptians? Life isn’t meaningless at all. I give plenty of meaning to my own life, no genocidal god needed at all. I have a wonderful spouse, a great family, my art, my pets, my friends, etc. Yep, I’ll die and I’ll make room for someone else, and it would be nice if I had some long lasting effect, but if no one remembers me within a week after I die, that’s fine. I enjoyed my life and though I’ll miss not seeing what happens in the far future, I had a great time and helped people, animals and the planet.

        Now, Jimmy, here is a question: do you find genocide okay or not? IS it only ok if your god says to do it? I’m guessing you’d have no problem at all committing genocide as long as you convinced your god approved of it, just like the parents who murder their children because they think hat their god told them to do so. That is the feeling of the “I brought you into this world and I can take you out.” Yep, it does seem like you would do this with this claim of yours: “The principle applies only to God. He made us, so He can do with us as He wills.” Yep, all you have is might equals right, how pathetic. It’s no wonder that people like you have no problem in following dictators. You are primed for it by your religion. And it’s pathetic that you have no problem with your god murdering whom it wants. Apparently the only reason you think it is not acceptable for parents to murder their children is that they aren’t powerful “enough”.
        And Jimmy, since you can’t show that you are a true Christian as described in the bible, why would anyone think that you know anything about this god? By the bible’s own description, you can’t possibly be the baptized person who has accepted Jesus Christ as savior since you can’t do what is promised. Now, it seems that you would find genocide just fine. And for all that Christians whine about this world, you’d think you’d get around to killing yourselves off so you could get to “heaven” faster. But you don’t, coming up with all sorts of excuses on why.

        Yep, prayers don’t work, and you haven’t been able to show that they do. Lots of false claims, and nothing else from you, Jimmy. You create excuses why your god does nothing for prayers, and evidently, you the elect Christians don’t bother praying for other people to help them. How pathetically selfish. Yes, Jimmy, the reason you refuse is that you have no evidence. You try to claim that I wouldn’t accept your evidence, another lie. IF I have done nothing here except make you realize that your lies are noted, that’s fine with me.

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      • Our lives have meaning, I agree. Why do they have meaning in the atheistic worldview? I’m not saying all atheists are nihilists, but that is the logical conclusion of atheism. If we’re all just soulless sacks of chemicals obeying what’s been genetically programmed into us, then life – all human life – is ultimately meaningless (incidentally, this also does away with free will), and therefore genocide is no big deal. Who cares about harming people? Why help others and try to make a better future? That is the inescapable conclusion of consistent atheism.

        Genocide is wrong. You’ve mentioned the societies that God commanded the Israelites to wipe out. I challenge you to do your research and see if they were fully human. I’m sure you remember, Israel was not commanded to wipe out all of the inhabitants of Canaan, only certain ones. Research the ones that were and discover what was going on there.

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      • Jimmy, you tried the BS that no one’s life have meaning without your version of your god. And you keep trying the nonsense that all atheists are nihilists so you can keep your ignorance, so please don’t try to claim you haven’t. Of course, one more lie doesn’t really matter. Nihilism is not the “logical conclusion” of atheism, and it’s a shame you keep lying about that. We are indeed sacks of chemicals but we have personalities, hates, loves, and joy. I know you hate to think that anyone can have joy without agreeing with you and that’s a pity. And no, human life isn’t meaningless. No matter how many times you choose to lie about that, it doesn’t make it true. And yep, we probably don’t have free will, but it feels like we do and we live like it. no god needed to placate like a pathetic sycophant like you are.

        I’m sorry you don’t care about harming people. I do. I’m not a minion who will do anything he is told out of fear and greed. I’m quite a happy consistant atheist, and I don’t have to lie like you choose to do.

        Wow, nice to see you lie about your bible and claim that people who your bible said it was okay to commit genocide against weren’t “Fully human”. Congratulations or using the same arguments for slavery and for murdering the Jews. You’d be such a good little Nazi. I know that everyone in the ancient middle east was human as human as you or me. But please do show how you know they weren’t “Fully human”. You made the claim, you get to support it. Hmmm, will you cite white supremacist sites? And please do tell me what you think “fully human” means. Hmmm, would it mean “just like Jimmy”? hmmm, do people who don’t agree with you deserve be gassed and put into ovens, Jimmy?

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      • I specifically said that not all atheists are nihilists, so who’s lying now? It is, however, its logical conclusion, no matter how you try to escape it. We have personalities and experience emotions, etc., but where did they come from in a materialistic universe? Those are immaterial.

        By “fully human” I mean genetically. Our genes are what make us human, all ethnicities alike and equal. When I say those societies were not fully human, I mean that another “species” entered our genome. Think aliens, but not from outer space. You’re not going to believe me if I tell you, that’s why I challenged you to look it up.

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      • Yes, you did say that all atheists are nihilists, no exceptions mentioned. “Can you tell me why it’s never good according to your worldview (i.e. without borrowing from mine, meaning you can’t use terms like good and evil)? Why should you care what’s beneficial for humanity if we’re all just stardust floating through the empty vacuum of space until we die and cease to exist? This renders human life meaningless, so who cares if someone commits genocide?” . Then you try to claim you said that not all atheists are nihilists, but go right back to you false claims from earlier, like a dog to its vomit: “I’m not saying all atheists are nihilists, but that is the logical conclusion of atheism. If we’re all just soulless sacks of chemicals obeying what’s been genetically programmed into us, then life – all human life – is ultimately meaningless (incidentally, this also does away with free will), and therefore genocide is no big deal. Who cares about harming people? Why help others and try to make a better future? That is the inescapable conclusion of consistent atheism.”

        Funny how most, if not all, atheists don’t agree with your “conclusion” at all. All we have is a TrueChristian who wants to claim he knows the “right” way to be an atheist.

        You want to believe that atheists are nihlists and you keep lying that we are and that thinking that there is no point to life is the only “logical” or consistent conclusion” for an atheist. It gets a bit tedious to see a theist lie repeatedly no matter what he is given to learn. You need atheism to be nihilistic because you need a reason for your god. If we are happy and have meaning, then, your god has no purpose. And wow, still with that “not fully human” bullshit. Nice to see you are a little racist and bigot too, Jimmy. Yep, our genes are what makes us human and we all share them and we’ve all shared them for tens of thousands of years. The tribes in the western Med are all the same genetics, and no they weren’t another species. There is no evidence for your lies again, and plenty of evidence that we are all human and we have been for a long time. It’s hilarious that you want to run to genetics when convenient to try to claim humans to not be “fully human”, and then haven’t clue what you are talking about and of course ignore genetics and what they show about evolution because you are a creationist. It’s a shame that you are such a coward to not be willing to give this evidence you clam to have Jimmy. It must be on some doozies of website. I wouldn’t believe someone who lies constantly, Jimmy, and for good reason. You dug that hole for yourself.

        I have looked up your lie and found evidence that, yep, it’s a lie. Now, there is evidence that the Israelites are the Canaanites, and they weren’t somehow “two species” at all. http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/07/ancient-dna-reveals-fate-mysterious-canaanites and an actual paper: https://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1043&context=humbiol_preprints You depend on your bible which is full of false claims, ignoring archaeology, and then you have to come up with excuses why genocide is okay.

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      • Read my comments again. Nowhere did I say that all atheists are nihilists. What I did say, to paraphrase, is that all *consistent* atheists are nihilists. ‘Consistent’ being the key word. If an atheist is not a nihilist, then they’re not acting consistently with their professed worldview. To me, this is more proof of what the Bible says, because we all know instinctually that life is not meaningless; and atheism is what the Bible says it is: an attempt to suppress the truth which God has placed on our hearts. We don’t come to God for happiness and meaning, but for forgiveness of sins.

        I appreciated the honesty of the Science Mag article. “So does the new study show that there was no war between the Israelites and the Canaanites? Not necessarily, says Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute geneticist Chris Tyler-Smith, who worked with Haber. Genes don’t always track conflict.” And, “Perhaps there was a Biblical war that ancient DNA simply cannot see.” The researchers should also consider a couple of things: 1) that some of the Israelites intermarried with the Canaanites in disobedience to God’s command, rather than wiping them out, and 2) the ones they did kill, Israel would then move into their homes and lands. The first explains the similarities between the Israelites and Canaanites’ DNA, and the second explains why the cities were never destroyed or abandoned.

        Admittedly, I did not read the entire paper. It appears to be a call for more genetic testing to be done, because to date, little to none has been done. I don’t want to offer much more than that since I haven’t read it completely. I would encourage you to research not just the Canaanites but other ancient tribes mentioned in the Bible, like the Rephaim, Emim, and Anakim. Your “doozies of website” comment supports my claim that you won’t believe what evidence I give you because you’ve already rejected it. So why should I waste my time giving you evidences?

        You accuse me of racism, even though nothing I’ve said even implies in the least that I am. I said we’re all the same and equal. Besides, racism is more consistent with the evolutionary worldview. Need I remind you of the complete title of Darwin’s “Origin of Species”? It was, “On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the *Preservation of Favoured Races* in the Struggle for Life.”

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      • I’ve read your comments, Jimmy, and even quoted them for evidence to show that yes, you have tried to claim that all atheists are nihilists and that all atheists should be nihilsts by your false claims that nihilism is the only “logical” and “consistent” way for an atheist to think. You were caught in a false claim and you were shown to be wrong. You can’t stand being wrong so you try to make more false claims about what you said. Atheists don’t believe what you want them to believe nor do they think what you need them think. Your “consistent atheist” is no more than a strawman. It’s always fun to watch a TrueChristian like yourself try to tell me what my worldview is and fail drastically. No, dear, my worldview isn’t nihilistic in the least. My worldview is based on reality and that humans should help other humans to get the best life we can get. But keep lying, the world won’t change to suit you.

        You want to claim that since humans aren’t generally nihilists, this means your version of your religion is true. Funny how most, if not all religions, claim the same thing and yours is one more many who can’t this to be the case at all. The thing you are ignoring is that we are all humans and that very well could be the reason we all share the same idea that we don’t want to die.

        Since you’ve yet to show that your version of your god exists, and since Christians don’t agree on what this “truth” is, again, no reason to believe Jimmy’s fantasies that he and only he knows the truth. Hmmm, so per you, “We don’t come to God for happiness and meaning, but for forgiveness of sins” Good to know that your god isn’t a source of meaning or happiness for you, Jimmy. It certainly isn’t a source of morality to you.

        Yep, the Science Mag article showed that you are a liar when you try to claim that the Canaanites aren’t a different species. It’s great to see you taking sentences out of context again, but that’s what I expect of a Christian who has nothing more than false claims. So, per your claim, the scientists should look at the idea that some Israelites intermarried. That would show your bible to be full of lies then, Jimmy, because your bible says that anyone who did this was murdered and *all* canaanites were killed and all of their towns were destroyed and all of their belongings destroyed unless they were worth something. Now, do you want to go with a lying bible or your newly invented excuse?

        Of course you didn’t read the entire paper, that would be the honest thing to do and you need to keep your willful ignorance intact to keep your belief alive. This is what a TrueChristian depends on: ignorance and then lying about what science says because you have no idea. Again, poor Jimmy has no evidence, and still is trying to move the goalposts since his first lies failed. Okay, let’s look at the term Rephaim/rephaite/enim/anakim: which seems to be referring to giants or spirits and gee, no evidence for them existing at all. More nonsense like the Nephilim, which are supposed to have intermarried with humans and of course no evidence of this at all either. Yep, your myths mention giants, just like any other myths from that age, to invent “monsters” that their heroes can strive against. No skeltons, no towns, no artifacts of any kind, just more stories with no basis at all. And again, no wonder you refuse to provide websites or references to support your claims. But do present the evidence for these giants. Surely you can, right? Show me I’m wrong. But it’s a lot easier to lie and say I won’t consider your evidence.

        Yep, I do accuse you of racism, and your need to pretend that other people deserve to die because of what they are underlines that. You haven’t said that we are the same and equal, other than trying to back away from your idiotic claims that “You’ve mentioned the societies that God commanded the Israelites to wipe out. I challenge you to do your research and see if they were fully human.” To excuse your claim about the people that your god decided needed destroyed by genocide. Then you had to run to “genetically” when I called you on your ignorance and bigotry: “By “fully human” I mean genetically. Our genes are what make us human, all ethnicities alike and equal. When I say those societies were not fully human, I mean that another “species” entered our genome.” And you have no evidence that there were any of these “genetically” different creatures too. Funny how Mengele was all about doing his best to find out how the “Jew” was different from Aryans and did horrible experiments to do so, cutting people apart to find those “species” differences.

        Yep, that is the complete title of Darwin’s book, you can see how Darwin was trying to figure out a good name for it here: http://www.darwinproject.ac.uk/letter/DCP-LETT-2439.xml . The term “race” was not quite what it was now, and means varieties within a species as this sentence from Origin says “Hence it has been argued that no deductions can be drawn from domestic races to species in a state of nature.” And this “Nevertheless, as our varieties certainly do occasionally revert in some of their characters to ancestral forms, it seems to me not improbable, that if we could succeed in naturalising, or were to cultivate, during many generations, the several races, for instance, of the cabbage, in very poor soil (in which case, however, some effect would have to be attributed to the direct action of the poor soil), that they would to a large extent, or even wholly, revert to the wild aboriginal stock.” And here “There is no obvious reason why the principles which have acted so efficiently under domestication should not have acted under nature. In the preservation of favoured individuals and races, during the constantly-recurrent Struggle for Existence, we see the most powerful and ever-acting means of selection. The struggle for existence inevitably follows from the high geometrical ratio of increase which is common to all organic beings. This high rate of increase is proved by calculation, by the effects of a succession of peculiar seasons, and by the results of naturalisation, as explained in the third chapter. More individuals are born than can possibly survive. A grain in the balance will determine which individual shall live and which shall die,—which variety or species shall increase in number, and which shall decrease, or finally become extinct. As the individuals of the same species come in all respects into the closest competition with each other, the struggle will generally be most severe between them; it will be almost equally severe between the varieties of the same species, and next in severity between the species of the same genus. But the struggle will often be very severe between beings most remote in the scale of nature. The slightest advantage in one being, at any age or during any season, over those with which it comes into competition, or better adaptation in however slight a degree to the surrounding physical conditions, will turn the balance.”
        So are cabbages varieties the same as human races as we understand them now? Yes. Am I a racist, as modernly understood, to prefer savoy cabbage over the common green cabbage? No and evolutionary theory shows that idiot bigots and racists are wrong.

        You’d know this if you did the slightest research, even on the Wikipedia page with references. Races certainly are variations within a species, Homo (genus) sapiens (species). And there is nothing that Darwin says that one race of humanity is better than the other. He may have believed that as a Brit during the Raj, but we don’t know. And the ones who insist on race being a problem and their own race superior, are those who constantly attack evolutionary theory. The Nazis burnt books on evolution because they didn’t fit their completely wrong idea of it and conservative Chrsitians, Muslims, etc today do their best to try to teach children lies rather than science. You might want to actually read Origin, though realize that Darwin has been far improved on in these last 100 plus years.

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      • You can go ahead and claim victory if you want to, but I’m done. I feel like we talked past each other for much of this conversation, so I’m not sure how much was accomplished. I’ll give you credit for this, though: you’re a good writer and very knowledgeable. Though your knowledge of Christianity is corrupted by your unbelief, which I think resulted in some of the misunderstanding, you are nonetheless knowledgeable, which is more than I can say for some of your unbelieving counterparts. Of course, any time there’s a breakdown in communication, there’s usually fault on both sides, so I’ll take my share of the blame (not for lying, though; I tried to be as clear as I could).

        Until we meet again,
        Farewell Club Schadenfreude

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      • I don’t have to claim victory. You still have not presented any evidence for your claims and you have done your best to ignore facts. You still try to claim that you know what an atheist should think to be a “consistent atheist” and again have yet to show how this is the case. I wonder if you will keep repeating the false claim that somehow the disbelief in any gods, or in evolutionary theory, must lead to nihilism. It doesn’t surprise me much that when I showed that your claims about Darwin were wrong and your claims about other “species” were ridiculous, you decided to bail. It’s inconvenient when someone asks you for evidence for your claims of giants, isn’t it?

        I am good writer and very knowledgeable, and it’s funny to watch you want to claim that the one thing I’m not knowledgeable in is the religion that you can’t support with evidence, because I dare to counter you with reality.

        You and every other Christian wants to make false claims and insist that anyone who doesn’t agree with you has “misunderstood” your bible, when all it comes down to is that they disagree, and no Christian can show that their version is the right one. You make false claims for your own benefit, and bore false witness against me and other atheists. You are indeed a liar, even by the lights of your own holy book. Nice try to attempt to blame me for your failures, Jimmy. It was not my fault that you have decided to end this discussion.

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      • As I asked before, who has had their prayers answered and how can you show this is true? You see, Jimmy, I know that no one has had their prayer answered, and I know that millions have not had their prayers answered. I know that they weren’t answered since people have died, starved, lost limbs, lost their faith, etc. Now, how does this work with the promises in the bible that this god will answer prayers with what was prayed for (for a father wouldn’t give a child a snake if asked for a fish), quick (the mountain moves immediately), and that there are no exceptions, per Jesus Christ himself. Most Christians will try to claim that this god says “no”, or gives something else than what was prayed for, or that the prayer wasn’t done “right” e.g. blaming the victim. Those are all in contradiction to what the bible says. They are inventions by Christians who know that their god doesn’t answer prayers and have to make excuses for that. This is not an argument from experience, it is observed fact. Where are those who got their limbs returned to them, because I’m sure that many veterans have prayed that they wouldn’t lose the limb that was mangled beyond hope, and they still did.

        I’ve also had Christians of various sects say that they pray for me to have my mind changed. That hasn’t happened either. We have limited reasons why this should be: this god like me as I am, this god doesn’ t like how these theists pray, it isn’t part of this god’s will to change me so prayer is pointless, or this god doesn’t exist. Which of these do you want to go with?

        You also try to claim that somehow I must have some objective standard of authority beyond myself. Why must it be this god? Reality is fine enough for me, and the solipsistic nonsense of we can’t know anything fails rather dramatically in the face of reality. I know that it doesn’t change by magic. Most Christians try to pull this one when they want to claim that somehow atheists are nihilistic at best, outright evil at worst, when we don’t need any morality from your religion. I do leave open the possibility of some kind of god, but it certainly isn’t god you claim to follow. There is no evidence for that one. And I’m perfectly happy with a subjective morality. It gets better, your god is stuck in genocidal ignorance accepted by the xenophobic tribe that invented it. I get my morals from my mind, my civilization, and my empathy. It is always curious that you expect humans to be horrible without your god, when we’ve been fine without it for thousands of years. Your god certainly isn’t the first one invented by humans. Please do show me the evidence that your version of the Christian god is responsible for conscience and creation, and not some other god, and not some other mechanism. All you have is a story, a story much the same as every other religion, who wants to claim that their version of some god is the one and only creator/conscience giver. Logic doesn’t work when the premises can’t be shown to be true.

        You want to claim that this god isn’t out to get everyone to believe in it. Hmmm, so how are we to take the lost sheep parable by Jesus Christ who says that this god *is* wanting to get everyone to believe in it? Now I do agree with you, your bible does say that this god isn’t interested in saving everyone. Paul contradicts Jesus when he claims that this god intentionally makes sure that some people can’t accept this god or this supposed savior and that they are damned through no action of their own (Romans 9). This really destroys the claim by some Christians that this god is concerned with free will. I was a member of a Calvinist sect, so that didn’t bother me, but for some Christians, it’s a problem. Which cherry picked part of your religion should we believe?

        Yep, many Christians run to that bit in 2 Peter. It’s a lovely repetition of events that cannot be shown to have ever happened, and threats that will never happen. It’s a sadistic fantasy of people who are upset that they aren’t getting the external validation that they need and who need to believe that anyone not like them is somehow deserving of eternal torture.. The one thing that I do like to point out in this particular set of verses is that it seems to indicate that it will be several million years until this god of yours gets around to doing anything if JC’s promise of return within a generation is also factored in. Since he didn’ return in a generation, one might have to posit that this was a generation in God years, and that an average generation is about 40 years long.

        There is no prediction here, only upset people who already were being told that they were wrong 2000 years ago. Nothing new about people being told that they are wrong, just like nothing new that people will claim coincidence and parlor tricks to be prayers answered.

        There is no reason to think that the future will not be quite a bit like the past. How long have Christians been claiming their magical god will do magical things like claimed in revelation? Again, thousands of years. The sun will rise tomorrow and will continue on until the earth is destroyed when it starts burning out and expanding. Still no god.

        I don’t have to believe you or your interpretation of one version of one religion. Just like I don’t believe your bible because it was by humans, and every other religion that claims it is from the gods themselves because those were from humans too. You might believe in a god who is supposedly all of the things you’ve claimed, but that doesn’t show it exists. Heck, Jimmy, you can’t even get other Christians to agree with you and they say exactly what you say about their particular versions. You don’t believe in their version of this god and they don’t believe in yours. You all make great atheists, because you don’t think each other have any evidence either.

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      • There are no promises in the Bible that God will answer prayer without exception. It must be in accordance with God’s will. You also misunderstand the parable of the lost sheep. The sheep don’t represent everyone, but as Jesus says, “the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” The broadest we can stretch it is to interpret it as those who will believe in Christ but have not as of yet. Not even close to everyone. From other parables we see that there are sheep (the saved) and there are goats (the lost). Why hasn’t God changed your mind? Maybe you’re a goat, I don’t know. Is it God’s will to change you? I don’t know, I hope it is. But prayer is never pointless.

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      • It’s always interesting to see how ignorant Christians are of what is in their bible. It does not say that prayer must be part of this god’s plan. Indeed, this would make prayer pointless. Let’s see what the bible says:

        Matthew 21: Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only will you do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ it will be done. 22 Whatever you ask for in prayer with faith, you will receive.”

        Matthew 18: 19 Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

        Matthew 7 “Ask, and it will be given you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Is there anyone among you who, if your child asks for bread, will give a stone? 10 Or if the child asks for a fish, will give a snake? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

        Now why would you try to lie to me about such things? It doesn’t reflect well on Christians knowing what they claim to believe in. At best we have a requirement for at least a few people praying. The others have no exceptions at all.

        It’s funny how you say the sheep aren’t “everyone” when other Christians claim the exact opposite, and I was taught the exact opposite in church. Again, who should I believe, Jimmy? But we’ll go with you claiming that the lost sheep are only Jews. Again, it seems that Jesus had no intention of Paul making the claims he did of being speaking for JC and this god. Inconvenient, isn’t it?

        There is JC talking about sheep and goats. That’s a good set of verses because it shows a humane Jesus, and shows that salvation is all dependent on works, nothing else. That really shoots the claims of some Christians that salvation is solely dependent upon grace.

        Well, per Paul, I could be one of those that this god of yours damned for no fault, but its desire. Is this just or fair, Jimmy? What happens to the words in the bible that one will be judged for one’s actions and no other? Again, we see that the bible repeatedly contradicts itself. And by your own words, prayer is pointless if this god won’t allow me to accept it. I could pray my head off and nothing would change. You are reduced to nothing more than a baseless hope, because you can never known who is saved and who is not.

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      • I wonder why you wouldn’t include these verses when talking about prayer.

        James 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

        1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us.

        Could it be that it’s you who is not handling the texts honestly? I take them all into consideration when doing a systematic study on prayer, not just a few to cherry pick for my own purposes. The result is, prayer is not a blank check, but it must be done in faith, with the right motives, and in agreement with the will of God.

        I don’t know what kind of church you attended, but I honestly don’t know how they could come up with that interpretation. You said it was Calvinistic, so they should believe in election. I don’t see how they could teach that the sheep were everyone. That would be borderline universalism.

        The sheep and the goats in Matthew 25 are saved or lost based on whether they are a sheep or a goat, not good works. The sheep do the good works, the goats do not. The sheep do good works because they are sheep, not in order to become sheep (saved).

        ” I could be one of those that this god of yours damned for no fault, but its desire. Is this just or fair, Jimmy?”
        There is no such thing as being damned “for no fault.” Paul, in that same book of Romans, says that all have sinned. That makes our damnation completely just and fair. I want mercy from God, not justice. Justice = hell. Everyone either receives mercy or justice from God, no one receives injustice.

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      • Well, Jimmy, I left those out since they came long after Jesus supposed existed and they contradict him. I was curious to see if you would fill in the blanks for me, because I knew if I gave them, you’d again ignore that your bible is quite screwed up. I wanted your agreement on the existence of those verses, to make them valid to both of us. Thank you for showing yet one more failure of your bible. Those verses are a great example of later Christianity having to make up excuses on why JC’s promises fail. Modern Christians continue that tradition, doing their best to claim that their interpretations, etc are the only right ones. 1 John is a good book since it shows how early Christians weren’t agreeing in some of the most basic things.

        What you seem to be arguing that we should ignore Jesus Christ, and believe people who came decades after JC supposedly existed. Is this the case?

        My church went through quite a few changes, thanks to people claiming that this god told them to do things. And again, not all Christians agree, Jimmy. Your opinion about the bible is just as valid as theirs, and just as subjective. And yes, some Christians are universalists. Of course, you’ll claim that they aren’t “really” Christians, but again, they are sure of the same about you. And your interpretation of Matthew 25 is just as up for interpretation, because again Christians don’t agree on what it means. This is, again, why I ask, why should I believe that Jimmy is the only one with the “right” answers?

        “There is no such thing as being damned “for no fault.” Paul, in that same book of Romans, says that all have sinned. That makes our damnation completely just and fair. I want mercy from God, not justice. Justice = hell. Everyone either receives mercy or justice from God, no one receives injustice.”

        Unfortunately for you, Jimmy, your bible says you are wrong in Romans 9, and it is such a classic might equals right argument (and a great demonstration on how much Paul and Jesus disagree and how that Paul gets a bible quote wrong), and your claim that sheep do good just because they are sheep e.g. chosen, also shows that your claim about “no such thing being damned for no fault” is wrong. Which claim of yours is wrong, Jimmy? Paul doesn’t mention this idea of everyone has sinned on why they are damned, but he does say that this god intentionally makes people unable to accept it and thus they are damned. Funny how per your claim about sheep and goats being that people do good because they are chosen, doesn’t match with your claim everyone sins. If everyone sins, then how can they do good and be your sheep?
        14 What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses,“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”16 So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses.
        19 You will say to me then, “Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; 23 and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?”

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      • I quoted James, which was one of the earliest books of the NT written, by the half brother of Jesus, the son of Mary and Joseph. And John wrote his letters against certain Gnostic groups to show that they weren’t Christians at all, but false teachers and “antichrists.” What I’m arguing is that the Bible must be taken as a whole, not cherry-picked as you’re doing. I didn’t even include some OT verses on prayer, though I could’ve.

        I never claimed to be the only one with the right answers, or that my interpretation is the only right one.

        Paul doesn’t say that everyone has sinned and are therefore damned?
        “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23) And, “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23) How can the sheep do good works if they too sin? You “used to be a Christian” so surely you’ve heard the Gospel? The good news that sinners can repent of their sin, believe on Jesus, and be forgiven. After that happens, then they do good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

        Are people condemned for their own sin, or does God harden people’s hearts? Yes. I don’t believe the two are mutually exclusive. The section you quoted references Pharoah in Exodus. In Exodus, it is stated both that Pharoah hardened his own heart (8:15, 32; 9:34) and that the Lord hardened his heart (7:13; 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:8). So both are true.

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      • You are entertaining in your continuing failure, Jimmy. The book of James is from around the same time the letters from Paul are dated (excluding those not thought from Paul), late 1st century to early 2nd century CE. Claims of it being earlier are not common and are not the consensus. And yep, other authors wrote about other other Christians to claim that they weren’t Christians, at all, just like Paul claimed. Again, we see that Christians haven’t agreed since the very early existence of Christians. Nothing like that to show that there is no reason to believe any of you. And you cherrypicked your bible, and it’s quite amusing. Yep, you can go for the OT verses on prayer. It also shows that you want to pick and choose what you want, especially when it comes to OT commandments, eh?

        And I have no problem calling bullshit on your false claims that you never have claimed your version of your religion was the right one. You constantly tell me I’m wrong about what I point out, and that, Jimmy, is saying that you are right. Now, let me ask you directly: are the Roman Catholics Christians? The various Orthodox Christians? The Mormons? Jehovah’s Witnesses? Bible literalists? If any of those are not Christians by your lights, then, yes, you are saying you have the only right answer. It’s always curious when it’s more than obvious that a Christian thinks that they and only they are right, but hate to be called on that. I’m guessing it is because you don’t want to be held responsible for being wrong, and you think this works.

        You do seem to have a reading comprehension problem or you intentionally ignore what I’ve read in order to create straw man arguments. I did no say that Paul didn’t say people all were sinners. I said that Paul claimed in Romans 9 that people are damned without any fault of their own with no mention of sin, but that this god damns them by preventing them from accepting this god. Again, Romans 9 contradicts any claim that “sinners can repent of their sin”, and JC himself says that he uses parables so people will not be able to understand and thus people will not be able to believe in JC. You see, Jimmy I have read the whole bible, not just want I wanted of it or what I was told to read. And it’s great to see you have the false belief that only your version of Christians can do good works. Reality shows that you are wrong, and this is a common claim by most religions, only believers of a particular religion can be decent, humane, etc, something greedy and ignorant to say. Oh and don’t forget your rather silly book says that one can’t be forgiving for saying that the holy spirit is nonsense.

        And it’s great that you admit that your god intentionally damns people without their actions. And if you read exodus, every single time the pharoah’s heart is hardened, it is by this god. In Exodus 8:15 “15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart, and would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.” Now what did the lord say? This, in chapter 7: “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. 2 You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his land. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and I will multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt. 4 When Pharaoh does not listen to you, I will lay my hand upon Egypt and bring my people the Israelites, company by company, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment. 5 The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out from among them.”. So we have that the Lord said he would harden pharaoh’s heart for all of the following instances, not that the pharaoh would harden his own heart. This is what reading the bible shows someone, that the bible is extraordinarily poorly written and contradictory. In chapter 9 we also have the same thing, where the Lord hardens pharaoh’s heard “12 But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.” And the same thing is said right after Exodus 9:34 which you quoted “35 So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the LORD had spoken through Moses.” In every case, it was this god’s actions and we get told of this again in Romans 9: “17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses.”

        You claim that you think that your god’s interference and that people are condemned for their own sins aren’t mutually exclusive. Hmmm, I think I agree with you since you do admit that people are damned through no fault of their own with this god’s interference. IF this is true, then this god is truly a petty being and again, the claims of free will by Christians fail quite dramatically. Especially when what is considered “sinful” changes at the whim of the individual Christian.

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      • It’s funny that you accuse me of cherry-picking yet you ignore when I even cited the verses which say that Pharoah hardened his own heart. So that’s an outright lie on your part to claim that it says the Lord hardened his heart every time.

        Are RC’s, JW’s, and Mormons Christians? No one who denies the Bible and the Gospel is, so no. Not because they disagree with me, but because they disagree with the Bible, in its plain sense interpretation.

        “Paul doesn’t mention this idea of everyone has sinned on why they are damned…” But he does as the verses I cited indicate. “The wages of sin is death.” (Romans 6:23) Again, I believe there’s room for both ideas. That God has mercy on whom He wills and hardens whom He wills, and that people are judged for their sin. If God makes a person unable to believe, then all they can do in that state is sin, and they will be judged for it. (Keep reading Romans 9 for the answer to your anticipated objection.) Does this eliminate free will? In my opinion, yes it does.

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      • No, Jimmy, I did not lie, I pointed out the context of your claims and the verses. It’s always great to have Christians protest that atheists don’t take thing in context, but when we do and it doesn’t work with your claims, you do your best to ignore context, that “whole bible” that so many Christians prate about.

        I know that you don’t think anyone but you and those who agree with you are Christians. However, you can’t show that your versions is the “right” one either and they say the same about you. Every Christian claim that their interpretation is the “plain sense interpretation”. Nothing new here. What would be interesting is if any of you could actually do the miracles promised by JC when he said that anyone who is baptized and who accepts him as savior will be able to do miracles like he did and better. But none of you can.

        As for what you believe, it doesn’t matter much since the two things you want to claim can exist together, can’t. And it’s interesting that you don’t seem to believe in free will. Are you sure you are part of the elect?

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      • The “whole Bible” is the larger context which also must be taken into consideration when interpreting a text. So while you quote sections of Scripture, additional context must be considered.
        Many people who disagree with me are Christians. As long as we agree on the essentials of the Faith, I can count them a Brother or Sister in the Lord.
        You used to belong to a Calvinistic church. Did you never hear of the cessationist view explaining why we don’t see many miracles today? You can look it up if you care to but I find it a plausible and Biblical explanation.
        My trust is in God for my election status. The Bible is clear that we are born again not by the will of man (including our own), but of God (John 1:12-13, Romans 9:16). Scripture also gives us signs to look for in the children of God, the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and numerous tests in 1 John. By the grace of God I believe I am.

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      • Jimmy, it is grand fun to watch a Christian like you want context to be acknowledged but when I do, you get upset that I did so and showed that your claims were wrong.

        Christians don’t agree with you on the essentials of the faith either, Jimmy. This is why you’ve murdered each other down the centuries. Christians make up what they want to consider “essentials” and then try to lie to non-Christians about their differences. C.S. Lewis in the preface to Mere Christianity told Christians that they should make sure that any new converts don’t find out about how the sect differ before trying to convert them. Now why would a Christian apologist say that if there weren’t essential differences?

        And why would you lie about such a thing to someone who was a Christian and who knows better than what you are trying to falsely claim?

        It’s also amusing that you differ with you supposed “brothers and sisters in the lord” when they claim that miracles happen all of the time now. The cessationist view about miracles, for our readers, is when a Christian decides that miracles don’t happen ever since the last apostle died, some also claim that their god doesn’t do miracles anymore either. Now, I know that many Christians insist that miracles still happen, and that we have many Christians who claim to be able to heal, including a lot of famous church leaders, including Paula White, the supposed “spiritual advisor” for Trump. She headlined a “Mega Conference Crusade Against Cancer July 27-Aug. 4”, so it seems that Christians don’t agree on some very essential things like do miracles still happen or not.

        Jimmy, do your brothers and sisters in the Lord lie? You seem to indicate they are, or we have just one more Christian who is sure that those who don’t agree with him aren’t Christians, and tries the circular argument that “Christians can’t like because they are Christians can’t lie….” Which we know to be false. How do you know that they aren’t elected and you are? You are rather like those Jehovah’s Witnesses, who think they are “elect”, and are extra special. It’s quite a dose of human vanity and nothing more than a false claim that no one but Christians can have these qualities: “love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control.”

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      • If someone disagrees on the essentials of the Faith, then by definition they are not a Christian. I think it goes beyond the scope of our discussion to include what those are, but if you’d like to discuss it, we can. Suffice it to say, the issue of whether miracles happen today or not is not one of those.
        If you search this very blog you’ll find two articles satirizing Paula White, because her views deserve to be satirized and mocked. One of our very first posts was against the heretical Word of Faith theology she espouses. So she is not a good example to use.
        Christians are not habitual liars, no. Have we lied? Sure. Is it possible for a Christian to lie? Yes. We’re sinners just like everybody else. We’re not special. The only difference between us and everyone else is that we’ve repented of our sins and have received God’s mercy.

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      • Since Christians don’t agree on what you call “the essentials of the faith”, then there is no reason to think any of you have the one true Christianity, Jimmy. You all insist that those who disagree with you aren’t really Christians. I got to hear that when I was a Christian often, that Catholics weren’t Christians, that those Baptists weren’t Christian, etc. The early Christians were doing the same thing, insisting that only their particular Christianity was the real one, and happily excommunicating, shunning and murdering each other over it. It’s great fun to see Christians try to claim one dogma after another as not “essential” when it certainly has been for them. Yes, Jimmy, the issue of whether miracles happen is essential to Christianity, because you insist that those who don’t agree with you on that aren’t Christian.

        Paula White’s ideas do deserve to be satirized and mocked, and so do yours because they are no more valid than hers. She makes false statements, her claims fail to come true, and again, she’s just like you because she is sure that anyone who doesn’t agree with her version of Christianity is a “heretic”. Thanks for showing that so clearly in your claims, Jimmy.

        Not all Christians are habitual liars, but some of them are, like you, Jimmy. You ignore your bible when convenient so you can continue your lies. For those of us who have read the bible, your hypocrisy is just amazing. And it’s always great to see Christians treating their god like the vending machine that they often claim atheists consider their god, insisting that they have to be forgiven for their intentional and continuing sinning. You certainly do think you get a free pass from your god, but again there is no evidence that it even exists. You are held responsible by real people for your very real lies.

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      • If either of us had lied it’s you. You have repeatedly said that I said the exact opposite of what I actually said. I said there are plenty of Christians who disagree with me on certain matters. I don’t know how long this conversation can continue if you’re going to continue to misrepresent my claims.

        And how have I ignored the Bible when I quoted it? I’m the one who acknowledges that verses must be taken in context while you seek to cherry-pick verses to fit your agenda. Again, if either of us has ignored it, it’s you.

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      • Then go ahead and show evidence for your claims, Jimmy. Where have I misrepresented you? Yep, plenty of Christians disagree with you, and you claim that they are wrong and you are right, without a shred of evidence. You claim that only your version of the “essentials of the faith” are the right ones and funny how other Christians don’t agree with you. You fail right here, jimmy. “If someone disagrees on the essentials of the Faith, then by definition they are not a Christian.” And claiming that “One of our very first posts was against the heretical Word of Faith theology she espouses.” When your claims are no better than hers. Both your versions of this god that you built in your own images fail.

        It’ great that you think you can claim that you don’t ignore the bible when you quote it. It’s called cherry-picking, Jimmy. You ignore the inconvenient bits and quote many verses out of context, which just makes me laugh especially when it comes to prophecy, etc. And it’s hilarious that when I do present verses in context, including those about your god supposedly hardening the heart of the pharaoh, you insist that you can ignore the context of this god claiming it will always harden this pharaoh’s heart right at the beginning of the story and this claims is repeated back in Romans 9. You try to ignore Christian history and the constant splintering.

        But please do tell me what the “essentials of the faith are”. Tell me what this god really wants, really means, etc. and why I should consider your version of your religion is the only right one.

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      • You used to go to church, so you should know very well what the essentials of the Faith are. They are those doctrines which if one doesn’t believe, they disqualify themselves as Christians, blaspheming the character of God, or giving a false way of salvation.

        I didn’t ignore context but provided additional context with other Scriptures, which you proceeded to ignore. (Like, yes it says God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, but it also says Pharoah hardened his own heart, as I pointed out.) But I’m not going to hold a Bible study with you, just like I’m not going to give you evidence for the faith. Not because I can’t, but because I choose not to. Change your presuppositions (i.e. get saved), and I will give you evidence. Until then, I will tell you that “God commands all men every where to repent: because he has appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man he has ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
        (Acts 17:31)
        That’s why you should believe.

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      • Great attempt to dodge my question, Jimmy. I know very well that each sect of Christianity has differences in what they consider essentials. That you desperately try to avoid telling me what these supposed essentials are shows that you know that too and know that your claims are false.

        As I noted, the contex of the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart has your god bragging that it will harden pharoah’s heart so this man will not be able to change his mind and so that this god can show off. This is in both the NT and OT. Of course, you won’t explain yourseslf, beause again, you have nothing, Jimmy. You know you have no evidence and you know your version of Christianity is no more true than the next Christian, Christians whom you claim are “heretics”, etc. This is the usual way Christians act, they claim that they have all of this evidence that shows how wonderful and right they are, but when asked for it, they do anything they can to not have to show this evidence.

        It’s hilarious that you want me to “get saved” and then you’ll give evidence. This is the assumption that again, only your version is right and anyone who is saved will agree with you and only you. Funny how you can’t even convince other Christians that Jimmy is right and is the chosen.

        Yep, it does say that in Acts 13 that this god will supposedly judge the world. It’s been more than two thousand years now, Jimmy. When will this happen? It’s quite a threat, but when a threat fails repeatedly, and Chrisitans are shown to be liars and that there is not one scrap of evidence of anyone being raised from the dead, there’s not much reason to think that your fantasies will come true. I know that you really hope I’ll be afraid and then worship your god out of that fear, but that’s not how it works. Even if this god was real, I’d never worship such a pathetic thing if the bible and Christians are accurate in their descriptions of this god. Who wants a god that is less moral than a human child? All you have is might equals right, and if you don’t think that is a good idea in humans, why would it be a good idea with a god?

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      • Believe what you want, but my refusal to supply both evidences for my faith and to tell you what the essentials of the faith are have nothing to do with my being unable to do so, as it does my unwillingness. If I’m being completely candid, it’s because of Jesus’ prohibition against casting “pearls before swine.” So, you can think God doesn’t answer prayer, Christianity is false, and I have nothing to share all you want, but that’s not the real reason at all.

        And you’re wrong, one day you will worship Him. “Every knee should bow…and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” (Philippians 1:10-11) Is this might = right? I could see why you would say that, but when God has ALL the might, it’s wise to worship Him. The only question is, will you bow the knee before you die?

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      • You have no pearls, Jimmy. What you do is exactly what anyone does when they have nothing to support their claims. You can’t get other Christians to agree with you and no one else does either. So you must play the martyr, who insists that really honest he does have this evidence but comes up with excuse after excuse why he won’t show this evidence. For someone who is supposedly to follow the great commission and show others why they should believe you, you hide behind accusations that those who don’t agree with you are “swine”.

        And no, dear, I won’t ever worship your petty version of the Christian god. No external validation for you. I don’t bow to fear and ignorance. Most, if not every, religion makes the same claim “I’m right and my big brother god will make you agree with me” Nice to see you admit that this is only might equals right. It’s no surprise that many religious folks are the worst when it comes to following vicious dictators. You are already primed for it.

        Alas, you have yet to show your god exists, and I am not afraid of bogeymen and their wannabee goons.

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      • The Great Commission is to preach the Gospel, and I have done that. As has been my contention the whole time, I don’t have to prove that God exists. You, and everyone, already know it.

        If this is a “might equals right,” what makes it acceptable for God and not for humans? Because God is by nature good, and man is not. I’ll gladly place my life in His hands.

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      • Well, since you’ve failed to show me that your god exist and failed to convince even your fellow Christians that you and only you are right, no, Jimmy, we don’t already know it. You make the same failed claims as a Muslim, a Hindu, a Wicca, etc.

        Great to see you have subjective morality, Jimmy. Claiming that an action is bad if a person does it and not bad if your god doesn’t is a perfect example of that. As for placing your life in this god’s hands, I wonder why you aren’t helping remove mines and unexploded ordinance in countries that really need it if this god will protect you.

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      • I never claimed to be the only one who’s right, or chosen.

        That’s an over-generalization of what I said. We are supposed to be like God in moral character. We’re not. So my ultimate trust is not in man but in God. Why don’t I knowingly place myself in extreme danger? Because that’s tempting God, what Satan tempted Jesus to do in Matthew 4.

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      • hmmm, so no one is a “heretic, Jimmy? You claimed so before, so now do you recant what you claimed about Paula White, etc? And you did claim that you were one of the chosen. “Are RC’s, JW’s, and Mormons Christians? No one who denies the Bible and the Gospel is, so no. Not because they disagree with me, but because they disagree with the Bible, in its plain sense interpretation.”

        and “My trust is in God for my election status. The Bible is clear that we are born again not by the will of man (including our own), but of God (John 1:12-13, Romans 9:16). Scripture also gives us signs to look for in the children of God, the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and numerous tests in 1 John. By the grace of God I believe I am.”

        Do you really think you can make false claims like this? And funny how you aren’t JC at all. Yes, Satan tempted JC, to use his powers. What we have with you is a Christian whose god has promised that he will be taken care of no matter what, as the lilies of the field, and the birds of the air. Ask and it will be given, knock and the door shall be opened. Any prayer asked will be granted.

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      • No I don’t disavow what I said before. Paula White and those of her ilk are heretics. That’s a far cry from claiming that I’m the only one who’s right. I never said that.

        Am I chosen? I hope so, I believe so. I didn’t definitively claim to be, I said, ” I believe I am.”

        We’ve already covered the ground of prayer being answered, I’m not doing it again.

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      • It’s great to see you running in circles, Jimmy. You claim that other Christians are wrong e.g. “heretics”, so by default this means you are claiming that you are right. What I don’t get is why you are desperate to claim that you aren’t saying your version of Christianity is right? It’s the one you follow, so of course you think it is right. What scares you about admitting this? Now, I’m thinking it is because you would be held responsible for your claims if you claimed that you were right, and you know your claims are indefensible.

        Take, for instance, your claim now that you “hope” you are chosen, when you claimed before you were, that you think you are. Now are you not sure? And again, still no prayers answered, and a baptized believer of Jesus Christ who takes him as messiah unable to do what is promised in the bible. In that you can’t do what is promised, why think you are what you claim? It seems that most, if not all Christians, fail in hitting these marks. Do you wonder why you can’t do what is promised?

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      • I’m not running in circles, you’re misrepresenting my claims. I never claimed to be the *only one* who is right. Do I believe I’m right? Of course. If I thought I was wrong, I’d change my mind. But I would never be so arrogant as to say that *my* way is the only way, or that people go to hell for disagreeing with *me*.

        I think you also misunderstand the Christian understanding of “hope.” As it is commonly used, hope refers to something that may or may not happen. But the Christian understanding is that of certainty. So when I say that I “hope” I’m elect, chosen, etc., I’m expressing confidence in God and in His promises.

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      • Jimmy, saying that you are right is the same as sayin you believe you are right. If I say that I’m right that vanilla is the best flavor, and then say “I believe that vanilla is the best flavor” they mean the exact same thing.

        You have called people who disagree with you heretics, and that by definition is saying that they are wrong and only your version of one sect of one religion is right. You say that it is a good thing that your god will send people to hell and that this is justice as seen by you, so again, you insist that your version is the only right one. Why you need to disavow something that you have said is curious. Why are you so afraid to say that you are right, when yep, you do believe that?

        So, you “hope”, expect with confidence, that you will be chosen. So you do believe you will be chosen and that you are right.

        And it’s no surprise that you ignored the rest of my post

        And again, still no prayers answered, and a baptized believer of Jesus Christ who takes him as messiah unable to do what is promised in the bible. In that you can’t do what is promised, why think you are what you claim? It seems that most, if not all Christians, fail in hitting these marks. Do you wonder why you can’t do what is promised?

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      • Again, those I called heretics are heretics not because they disagree with *me* but because they don’t teach according to the Scriptures. Every orthodox Christian (regardless of denomination) believes in hell because that’s what Scripture teaches. So to teach anything contrary places one outside of orthodoxy. The issue is not me, but what Scripture says. It’s not me who is right, but Scripture.

        And we’ve already had the discussion regarding the miracles, signs and wonders in Mark 16.

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      • In that all Chrsitians claim that those “others” don’t teach according to how the Christian interprets the scriptures, you are indeed saying that they don’t agree with you. You, like all other Christians, claim that your version is the “orthodox” version and can’t show that it is any better than the next.

        Again, Jimmy, you can’t even demonstrate that you are a Christian per the promises of your bible. There is no reason to think your version is any different from those “heretics” you accuse. And no, not all Christians believe in hell, not all Christians believe in the trinity, not all Christians believe that this god hates homosexuals, etc. You believe in cessatioinism of your own invention, but again the bible doesn’t support that at all, and thus isn’t even in the scriptures you claim to follow. One would think you would have boils since that is what the bible claims will happen to those who try to add to the bible.

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    • Well said, ‘club’! Unfortunately, Jimmy’s response to your points is cliched, ill-informed and borders on the abusive. Sometimes Christians themselves are evidence that God doesn’t exist.

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  2. Pingback: Presuppositional Apologetics Round Up: Third week of August 2018 | The Domain for Truth

  3. Pingback: Christians Say the Darnedest Things: Atheists KNOW the Evangelical God Exists | The Life and Times of Bruce Gerencser

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